Having just been in Turkey, I’m tuned in to three thorny issues that are in the news about Turkey these days: The “Armenian Holocaust,” Kurdish separatists in Turkey, and Turkish membership in the European Union. I’m less clever than our Vice President on these matters. But I thought I’d pass along how my Turkish friends explain them.
About the Armenians:
I have a personal affinity for Turkey, and whenever I rave about the place as a travel destination, I get…”flack” is not quite the right word…from Greeks and Armenians about the ugly history of that troubled region. Armenians insist that I make Turkey admit to committing, specifically, “genocide.” Turks don’t want me to talk about Armenia and would never put those two words in the same sentence. (I filmed at a ruined Armenian church on Lake Van and tried to deal constructively with the issue in one of my TV episodes…and I angered both my Turkish friend and Armenians.) Even though I know I just can’t win on this issue, let me try to explain what I’ve picked up on this in Turkey:
From 1915 through 1917, while Britain, France and Russia were trying to divide up the Ottoman Empire, hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Armenians and Turks were killed in what was seen by many at the time as an effort to stop a rebellion of separatist Armenians.
Like the Muslim Turks and non-Muslims in the region, the Armenians had lived in relative peace and prosperity for centuries under the Ottoman administration. But starting in the late 1800s and escalating during World War I, the Russians and British — eager to undermine the pro-German Ottoman regime — enlisted Armenian groups to rise up against it. As a consequence, the Armenians suffered the bloody wrath of a dying empire.
Today, many descendants of the survivors (the Armenian Diaspora) live in France and the USA. An independent country of Armenia has emerged in what was once Soviet territory…while many of that civilization’s historic treasures lie ruined and desolate, just across the border in eastern Turkey.
Some of my most poignant travels have been wandering through ancient buildings deserted or destroyed in the early 20th century…lasting reminders of the slaughter of Armenians and the tragedy that the ethnic group that once thrived there will never return.
To this day, the government of the Turkish Republic (which didn’t exist until 1923, several years after the slaughter of the Armenian people) has never officially admitted to any wrongdoing. Armenians are mourning an almost Nazi-like genocide. But the Turks see something more analogous to the American Civil War: the South insisted on seceding and fired the first shots, so they are the ones who could have prevented the disaster from ever happening. Turks I’ve spoken with have no problem with having the truth investigated and debated on the world stage. But they want historians — not politicians — to do the assessment.
Coming up: Turkey and the debate over small Kurds and large Kurds.
Ah, just as I was hoping for a new blog entry, a new one pops up. It’s like you have E.S.P. :-)
I will not be interjecting my opinion about the topic of your blog since I do not know enough about what happened to share a valid opinion, but I am thankful that you share this brief history lesson and your Turkish friends’ perspective.
Peace, Trish
New areas that you are covering are so interesting. In my latest Euro-trips I splice the countries like France, Germany and Netherlands with places I did not explore before. Slovenia was great especially Bled. I now am thinking next trip maybe Istanbul. Keep on travelin’ and keep on bloggin’. We love it. Thanks Rick.
Armenia has the same problem as many other countries and portions of countries throughout the world. A country must consist of two things, and two things only — a border and a culture.
Without going into all the detail, just think, the problem with Armenia, the Kurds, the Jews, and many others, is that they have a culture, but do not have a border.
Other countries have a border, but their culture is in danger of multiculturalism, and that will be the end of any country as we have known it for ever.
At times there appear to be more Armenians in Glendale and Burbank then in Armenia, most have been born long after the problem with Turkey, and many Armenians in the USA were born in Armenia, then moved to the USA.
If their country is worth the fuss and bother that appears to be going on for the past century, you would think they would want to stay there and make their country bloom.
This is the first time in a while that I wanted to make a comment, but I’m restraining myself because I don’t want to stir up a racial/ethnic debate. Thanks for continuing to keep us informed Rick!
In Samantha Power’s book on the conceptualization of genocide in the 20th century, called ‘A problem from hell’, she writes that Hitler was emboldened by what he saw as a lack of accountability for the Armenian massacre by the Turks; he asked “Who today still speaks of the massacre of the Armenians?†figuring that “history is written by the victorsâ€. I’d recommend Power’s book for anyone interested in the historical significance and context of what happened to the Armenians.
Rick, they say that the final chapter of genocide, the final outrage, is the denial of the monstrosity. No credible historian on earth would deny the Armenian genocide, or buy into your “Holocaust denial” statements. Genocide denial is a hate crime, and given my profound respect for your morality and humanity, I am deeply saddened by your immoral relativism on this subject. To say you cannot win on this issue is akin to saying that you cannot win on the topic of the Holocaust, angering both Jews and Holocaust denialists. You can win: with the truth, the morality, that recognizes and decries the first genocide of the 20th century, from which the term “genocide” was coined. (The notion that the genocide was justified because some Armenians — horribly oppressed under Ottoman rule; denied basic human rights, such as the right to sue a Muslim in court; and subject to pogroms and slaughter through the ages — took arm against their overlords during the genocide is horribly offensive!)
I agree with Trish that I don’t know enough about the issue to truly make any informed opinion. I really admire, Rick, that you are willing to address a politically sensitive issue. Thank you for also presenting your Turkish friend’s thoughts as they are the folks actually living close to the issue. They may have a different opinion than we do. Ask people who live in the Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland about what it’s actually like to live in a civil war for years. May the Turkish and Armenian conflict wind up having as much resolution as those countries have. At least it proves it possible, so perhaps there’s hope.
It appears that the Armenians & Mongs have something in commom…..asked to fight, & then betrayed.
Rick, you try to be neutral in this matter, but how can you be neutral when there are official documents and eyewitness accounts of the atrocities that were committed? I encourage you to study the matter further, despite your feelings about Turkey. Our Library of Congress contains records from the US ambassador to Turkey that details what he saw. This wasn’t a journalist covering a war between Armenians and Turks. I recommend you or anyone really interested in finding out more about this sad time in human history to read Black Dog of Fate, by Peter Balakian. I was ambivalent about this topic until I read this book myself.
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger, OK? I’m sure Rick isn’t personally neutral on this issue, but tried to give an unbiased view of it. He didn’t slant it through his personal observations, he allowed his Turkish friends to express their views. His intent is to inform, and allow each of us the freedom to make up our own minds. As far as the action Congress took to “condemn” the actions of so long ago in Armenia, I fully expect them to issue a proclamation any day now condemning Attila the Hun from attacking and pillaging Rome. Whoever is to blame and for whatever their reason, dredging up sludge from so long ago does nothing to bring peace to a war-torn world. Once again, Congress has proven its ineptitude — and why foreign affairs should be left to the Administrative Branch (and hope for the best). At least they have diplomats in the State Department.
Karl, the point I was trying to get at in my earlier comment is that when no one is seriously held accountable for atrocities on the level of the Armenian genocide, it can have the effect of emboldening others with the means for carrying out similarly appalling actions. No, an official condemnation by the U.S. or any country won’t change what happened with the Armenians, but maybe it will give some closure. I’m not sure why Rick keeps getting opinions from Turks on Kurds and Armenians, though—why not talk to Kurds and Armenians themselves? An acquaintance of mine toured Turkey recently and she and her family were invited to dinner by a Kurd who was quite willing to share his opinions.
Hmmm…point well taken. I’d love to hear the views in the first person.
Karl, I have a huge distate for those who throw in Armenian Genocide issue with things like the Huns’ conquests or Hannibal invading Italy, etc. I’ve heard them all in the past month with Armenian Genocide being such a huge issue. They completely trivialize what is an event people alive today lived though and trying to portray it as irrelevant as events thousands of years old. Today in Turkey, as Rick mentioned, the cultural heartland of Armenia lies in desolation. The few churches that weren’t blown up and taken apart by the government in the 50s and 60s stand in silent despair. Turkey can’t keep pushing this under the rug- it owes it to it’s (formerly) minorities to be more forthcoming about what happened and ways to go into the future together. As much as people like to slap the Armeinans and tell them to snap out of it, if you look at it from their situation you see how it’s impossible for them to. The onus is on Turkey to start the healing, Armenia can’t do it alone.
One of RS’s editors wrote me back when I questioned his comment in a Germany guide that Dachau was a concentration camp and not a death camp. I asked him about the gas chamber there and he said there is no evidence it was used. I told him that it stretches all credulity and common sense given everything that is known about the Nazis that they would have NOT used a facillity labeled “showers” with a rubber sealed glass peephole in the door for anything but mass murder. I asked him to just remove the comment that it was not used as a death camp and he refused. No money have I given to Rick Steves from that moment. I am glad he is neutral in this discussion too, it makes me more certain of his character.
Rick needs to have the courage to visit Armenia, and hear the other side of the story.