For a year now, I’ve been injecting politics into my travel blog. It’s what I do. This blog is my selfish delight: to sort through impressions I pick up on the road in search of real meaning…and then share them with others. I find writing for this blog curiously enjoyable.
If you want chat about fun in the sun, duty-free shopping, and frequent-flier miles, and you’re still looking here…I have to wonder why. There are piles of other, much better travel blogs for you.
Peter referred to me “starting problems” with comments about the Marine, and so on. What problems? I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. In fact, I hope everyone does not. (If I want easy compliments, I just call my mom. Here, I crave smart people to disagree with me and explain — without insults — why.)
I float these observations in the hope that others can share related travel-inspired responses. We are just finding that a few people waging one-on-one debates on tangential issues takes away the focus of this blog.
I like Jimmy’s comment about the spirited debates in the British House of Parliament as being fun as well as pointed. That’s what I’d love to foster here.
If my travel experience causes me to think my Dad is needlessly afraid of Muslims, and then I teach my child to finish table grace bobbing his cute little arms up and down while saying “Allah, Allah, Allah” — I can’t think of a more appropriate story to share on this blog.
If that offends you, and you insist on coming back for more…the beatings will continue until morale improves.
Rick, As they say… It’s your party!. Just remember boats were meant to be rocked otherwise they’d sink. Keep it up.
Hey Rick- don’t back off the politics, please! I don’t agree with you on many things, but you seem to be one of the few prominent voices out there who offers a bit of international perspective to our sorely introspective national debates. You might be preaching to the choir… but this choir, hopefully, can sing to the non-converted. Keep it up!
Rock on, Rick.
Variety! Controversy! Diverse cultures and ideas! Aren’t those great reasons to travel? And isn’t lively political debate what keeps the political process healthy? Wouldn’t it be boring if we all agreed about everything? I love hearing what people from other countries think of us, too. Please don’t stop!
Thank you for this post as well as the previous one. I’m not here to stroke your ego, nor do I necessarily always agree with you when it comes to your political, if not controversial, statements; but I am here to be open to your perspective on travel and how travel itself affects your perspective on life. Likewise, I look forward to the healthy discussions, debates and sharing of travel ideas from your blog participants. I learn from everyone who brings valid points to the table and hope that taking in and being open to all sides provides me with an opportunity to not be stuck in my own ways or, conversely, to stick to my convictions when necessary — to extend my branches in new directions or to strengthen my foundation by sturdying my roots. I don’t like the random, back-and-forth chatter or the attacks on people who have ideas different than someone else’s. We are not required to agree with your or anyone else’s opinion. We should, however, play by the rules (posting guidelines) and also respect other people and their ideas, whether or not we agree with them. And that is one of the greatest things that travel (and your blogs) can teach us. If we, your readership, are to call ourselves travelers, then we must act like it. Travel done right should open your mind, fill you with wonder, and challenge you to think differently, if only temporarily. I think most of us enjoy the act of travel because it does inspire us to see not only with our eyes but with our hearts. We just have to remember to hang onto that when we come home — otherwise, we’re just vacationers or tourists.
Rick, I loved the anecdote you told Arthur Frommer on your podcast with him about how people tell you that they’re switching to his books because he’s less liberal than you! I thought it was interesting that he encourages his writers to inject their “outlook” and “political comments” into their writing.
You’ve lost me – “righteous” is not becoming.
You gained me. I am a righteous sinner who likes to travel and absorb the ideas and views of a multi cultural world. I grant everyone the right to disagree with me, and most seem to – I have only picked one winning president since “Ike” so I’m always in the minority. But, I do enjoy getting on an airplane and seeing how the people outside the USA live and understand us. I will try and find something I disagree with you on, but so far it has been somewhat difficult.
Mark Twain’s famous quote comes to mind on this subject. He once said “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.” While I don’t subscribe to many of your political beliefs Rick, I come here and read your books because I feel I can learn from you and your perspective. It’s very much the same reason I love to travel. Rejoicing in our differences is what reminds us of our uniqueness. Not right or wrong, or left or right… just different and appreciating that fact alone. I’m off to London and Paris next week. You’ll be with me as always, that little voice in my head, urging me to experience the unique and different we all are.
I am going to Paris this summer and I have hired and become a customer of Rick Steves by paying him the enormous sum of $17.95 to prepare me for my trip. I like choices so I also hired and became a customer of Arthur Frommer for $17.99 to prepare me as well. I work 50 hours a week sometimes so I don’t have time to research history and art and I like the way Rick crunches the data. I’ve compared hotels by looking at the ones Rick recommends on the web and looked at Frommers as well. I like Frommers choices better for hotels. I like Ricks walks in the city so I leave Arthur home he served his purpose and I bring Rick along. I read both their blogs Frommers is stragightforward only travel, Ricks wanders off course which I like at times. I know that Rick has left coast leanings I have no idea of Frommer so I take Ricks blog opinions on life with a grain of salt. But in the end does it matter. I have hired these two men to give me the dirt on where I want to go and am a customer/client of both. If I don’t feel one is treating me well as I want I go elsewhere maybe to Lonely Planet or DK. It’s all about choice, read the blog or don’t, like that other lady says it is not life and death.
Great reading continues…Right on Talia, travel is about diversity, culture and ideas” and the other thing I consider important is accurate historical information in other words: “The secret in education lies in respecting the student”(Ralph Waldo Emerson) and “He who dares to teach never cease to learn”(unknown)–in other words, Rick your our teacher on diversity, culture, ideas….that’s why its fun to read your site….
This is my favorite BLOG on the ‘net’. ……….I enjoy the most your descriptions in detail of your experiences and especially how you do the different parts of your job……………such as plan and film TV, write your books etc. ………On that note it would be interesting to hear how you plan for your travel expos at your office in Edmond that you hold sometimes during the year….Thanks Rick.
My first introduction to you as a person where you were geled in my mind will always be my lasting impression. I met you in Europe through the gutter—-http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/destinations/europe/gutter.htm—-. You had no political leanings I could dispute and that is the Rick I carry with me when I carry your books with me on my trips. You have evolved in your thoughts and beliefs from 1973 to now as we all have based upon our individual encounters with life. I totally and vehemently oppose you on some issues and would argue toe to toe but I totally and passionately stand on the same side as you on other issues. I am a moderate Republican and until this year never thought I would vote democrat even if I was senile or even tortured I would hold out. Miracles happen this year either Hillary or Obama will get my vote. I support you in voiceing your opinion and we have our opportunity to voice ours in the response. I think everyone that reads your blog is pretty set in their ways and if you don’t agree with one of them or them with you it shouldn’t rock anyones world to making someone have a bad day. You shouldn’t feel this is a guilty pleasure you worked hard to build your business to a multimillion dollar privately held business from the days of europe through the gutter when little teenage Rick had a Prince Valient haircut.
Rick, Please keep adding your personal opinions into the blog. I usually don’t agree with your politics but like hearing your views. Alison
Rick, if I’m looking for travel information I comb your website which has a ton of it. The reason I’m addicted to your blog is because you do include your political ideas. This is what a blog is for. I don’t always agree or disagree, but I always love your witty, intelligent approach.
Some of the world’s problems are “tempests in a teacup”, but the cultural and political misunderstandings between peoples of this planet are both sad and dangerous. I realize that many Americans and our government have opinions of “others” without factual basis and apparently lack the desire to know what is reality. Rick’s passion for presenting the “others” to America, including his political asides, is helpful in dispelling incorrect beliefs.
Rick, I agree very much with the posters who acknowledge that this is your blog, shouldn’t you be allowed to voice your opinions be they political or not? People seem to forget that they always have a choice to read or not… If you don’t like getting fired up over opposing political views, that’s fine, just don’t read it! I on the other hand will continue to read and very much enjoy all your postings, both political and otherwise. What’s the fun of always have everything separate? Travel, politics, religion and spirituality, culture. I see them as being beautifully tangled together, and I happen to like them that way. What is so threateneing about differing opinions? Keep up the always interesting blog, I love it!
Rick, I truly enjoy the travel viewpoints mixed with politics. I love to debate issues as long as it stays friendly and respectable. Whether I agree or disagree, keep firing us up.
Rick I was surfing the net trying to find out what your political views are on several topics. Really the only think I know is that you want us out of Iraq immediately and that you were or are on the board of directors of NORML and support legalization of pot. Surely there is more than that. I did come across this particular interview back from 2004 which elucidates some more of your views which were challenged by the interviewer ,,,,, http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003213.html….but still I’m sure the are alot we still don’t know. How about a column on what views you thinks are the most important and relevant that you want us to know.
Great hearing all these viewpoints, however, I was wondering….where are you heading this spring? Any travel planned next month? just wondering…
i agree 100% rick. i dont mind talking with people who disagree with what i believe. in fact, that is something i find very refreshing about travelling through europe. people can actually have dialogue with each other, disagree, and niether person feels the need to throw a punch(even if we’ve both had 3 or 4 large size beers). I really enjoy talking to level headed, intelligent people. it enhances my life and enriches my outlook on things.
To quote Forrest Gump, your blog is like a box a chocolates………..That’s what makes it interesting and fun to read. In my opinion, when Rick takes a detour away from travel and into politics, his straight forward nature and writing style that shows up as appealing when Rick is describing a hotel/restaurant/town, reveals itself as polarizing and harsh when translated into politics. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, especially since this is his forum, but when he takes jabs that imply more conservatives are extremists, questions whether America is an evil empire, justify’s more socialism (at least with healthcare), and treats it as a fact that man is heating the planet, then he should expect strong responses back. To piggyback on what Kevin said above I would like to hear even more about Ricks political views. Such as, which European country do you think has the best political/economic system? Would you describe yourself as a capitalist or a socialist or some hybrid of the two? Is there an issue that is generally viewed as “Conservative” that you agree with? For example, I’m conservative but I agree with your NORML arguments. Keep up the interesting blogs.
Yes Kevin and Jeff hit the nail on the head we need more information about what you think is good about America and bad and good about Europe and bad. We seem to be in a similar boat as France and Italy who dislike their present leaders. England is on the same level as us screaming about how they hate their health care system. The Dutch, the British the Danes and the French are having enormous problems with their muslim populations who they must take care of as they were former colonies and seem to have extreme Islamic funamentalists. The EU in general has problems as we do with outsourcing jobs to India. So it seems like we are small world and all have grips about where we live. I support your talking about politics and hope that you realize that we travel extensively too and may not see things the same way that you do.
I did find another article which made me laugh because they call Rick’s travel business his travel EMPIRE ,,,http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/salespower/2006/03/31/1.html?page=1,,,, and this has more information and maybe Rick you would talk about this article and if your feeling have changed because if you want to spread some the 31 million you made in 2006 around as you say you want to do in the article I am here to take it ;). It will be good to hear if your thoughts have changed from 2004 to 2006 to 2008. I’ve used up my 2 space maximum so that’s it from me
Bravo!
ha ha ha…just have to chuckle about the beatings. I have only been reading your blog since January and have been very fascinated to hear your point of view on things. I, like so many others, vehemently disagree with a lot of your political stances but am interested to read them and what drives those opinions. I doubt I’ll be converting from my conservative republican point of view but you do post good arguments. But you are right, when it gets personal it is not effective. Keep up the good work.
Rick wears the same shirt while filming his TV series for continuity reasons. His shirt must be far more offensive than his politics. peeyoo!
Traveling to Europe or other countries is not like going to Disneyland. Just the other day the President of Italy said that he did not think the US was ready for a Black president, and that if Obama is the canidate we surely would have Mcain as a president. Well, does that mean that we don’t go to Italy now because we may not agree with the Presidents view point. Hopefully we all keep traveling so we don’t become close minded! Rick keep on going this is what it is all about! Judy
Politics is a central part of any society. Keep the comments in your blog. October of 2006 I was in Austria during their election and in Budapest which was having political protests at the same time. Very interesting observing others and noting that some of their basic problems are the same as some of our concerns (i.e. immigation, terrorism, governmental integrity, etc). Love the blog!
Rick, I have been a huge fan for many years. You helped inspire my first trip to Europe five years ago. I have purchased every TV show you have made and every trip to Europe has been accompanied by your Guidebooks, phrase-books, and even your travel Podcast in Paris. I just returned from another trip to France this past week. Having said that, all of this controversial talk has created a new and growing disinterest in me for your resources. You have a right to your opinions and views and I agree with them at times, but your ability to write about travel is what drew us to you in the first place and it is what is becoming more and more drowned out by the personal preferences and opinions about politics and religion which you insert here and occasionally elsewhere. I will probably be misunderstood by some. But all I’m saying here is that I want Rick Steves to remind me about those wonderful, hard-to-find treasures that are lurking on the less-traveled streets of Europe. I want to be taken to another place and told of the joys of visiting other cultures. That’s why I come here. Rick, it’s your party. You can rock the boat but you’ll probably start losing some loyal passengers due to lack of interest, myself included. Chuck
Chuck again… forgot to add my e-mail address.
Rick – I am a huge fan of your travel shows, books and videos – I always depend upon your knowledge when traveling to Europe – it’s your blog, write about what you want – I appreciate hearing your views even though they are not always the same as mine – keep it up!
Love your books because they are so simplistic and don’t make me think…it is all laid out. Would love to see a once a week political topic to discuss. I don’t agree with your leanings and would love to try to bring you over from the ‘dark side’ :)
Rick let me correct you as sometimes people misread or are tired and misinterpret. I did not say you were ‘starting problems’ I said that is “when the problems started’ of people getting personal about the issues and people talking to each other. That blog garner over 129 responses and you had to cut if off because people were so fired up they wanted to continue talking to you about it. So please make the distinction between me saying yuu started problems and when the problem started of people polarizing in their stance on whether what you did to the marine was appropriate or not, it brought out alot of emotion in all.
I want to bring us back to Rick’s point that the blog is a *supplement* to his travel publications, and that it reflects personal opinions. The blog and publications are different sides, albeit of the same person. Keep blogging, keep writing, keep broadcasting, Rick.
am grateful for your blog – as others have said – it’s great to check in during the work day and read your adventures – as someone famous once said “Happy Travels” …many thanks
Discovering you had the political views you do brought me to your site, since I share them. Nice to know that the person I’ve watched on TV all these years is a fellow liberal! My only wish: you covered Asia as well as Europe.
Gene Simmons of KISS and his daughter Sophie are making the rounds to Vet hospitals to thank people for their service to their country anywhere from WWII onward..what about stoping by a few bases overseas to talk to the guys. Maybe being up close and personal with fellow country men will change your mind or open your mind to other peoples lives and thoughts.
Rick, a few travel festivals ago, you began an Italy session with the usual key travel points. By the session end, you’d shifted more to a first draft “travel as political act” emphasis. I loved it all. Not everyone did. Sitting near the stage, wanting to talk with you, I held still as people streamed by. Most talked about how much they valued your opinions. A very few seemed angry, as if betrayed. Frankly surprised about the vitriol from two people, I followed them to the street to hear more. They said never would they buy a rick book again, or darken rick’s travel door. Unable to restrain myself-not usual for this traveler- I approached the pair, with “so what did you think of the talk?” They repeated with emphasis what I overheard. This lead to a few minutes walking together talking. My soft words of disagreement with their views seemed to surprise them calming the tension. We also talked about general travel, my love of etbd style, and my own tours, which finally allowed us to agree to disagree about our political positions. We broke off our conversation, as they got into their car, with “hope to see you traveling soon” and believing we at least understood each other better. The anger on their side was gone.
Rick you use to be the every man that we all could relate to…but now you have a corporation that is worth over 40 million dollars, your son goes to a school most of us can’t afford at 50,000 a year and he gets to cavort through Europe and yet you don’t like americans. If I was at the talk with Larry I would have gotten up and walked out. I read what is in your thoughts of travel as a political act http://windowseat.travelocity.com/2008/02/rick_steves_on_travel_as_a_political_act_1.html and if you would have advertised this as a travel talk and then did a bait and switch on me I would be steaming mad. As long as you advertise that there is going to be anti american sentiment in your talk and it is controversial then there is no bait and switch. We still see you as the everyman the good ole joe and not use to the left winged radical. Opinions are always welcome just don’t take money for it unless you tell people what they are buying. And it is hypocritical to keep your political thoughts seperate from your business for fear americans will stop funding your radical views and cushy American life. Until I read all this I had planned on signing up for a RS Scandinavia tour with my wife, son and daughter in law and 4 grandchildren now I think an oceania cruise looks better. I am an american not a european socialist
Rick, if it feels right, don’t think twice. Isn’t that the NORML way of things? I do enjoy a spirited debate and if it doesn’t have anything to travel, then so be it. I read and participate in many political blogs. Do you think that maybe politics might just be your next profession. You know the European travel business does look kind of bleak. If the beatings continue, morale is not going to improve.
Travel & politics go hand in hand. We Americans make up a very small portion of the world population, yet we have leaders who want to force our beliefs & systems on everyone. It’s time to get over ourselves and join the rest of the world. You only come to this realization by traveling…talking & listening and meeting others in your travels. Our corporate way of government is a drain on the environment, our neighbors on this planet, and those that will inhabit it in the future. Our global mission to control the flow of oil has got to end. We cannot survive another presidential term like the last two. So you keep it up Rick.
In case anyone has missed what is going on we don’t control the flow or price of oil OPEC does and in California it is up to 4.35 a gallon which is closing in fast on europes 6.00 a gallon. Did you know that anyone now buying an SUV has an extra 7K added to the sticker price. Pretty soon we will not be able to travel and be free spirits because it will be a choice between heating the house you can’t pay the mortgage on or putting gas in the car to the job you are afraid to lose because of the recession. Wake up europe controls oil for europe, russia is the new OPEC and Dubai is the new God of Oil along with other princes of the middle east. Like rick says we are not as rich as we think because we have been giving all our money away in foreign aide. I’m ready to do away with NAFTA, bring those outsource jobs back from India, stop manufacturing in China so if I can’t take the family to europe at least I can afford Disneyland, but not if I have to fly or drive there, airfare is too high from oil and gasoline too high,guess I’ll need a plastic pool in the backyard and call it a good life like the 1950’s.
I’m in total agreement with you, Rachael…I live in California. It’s also clear to me that our domestic oil companies act in perfect harmony with OPEC. They will push as far as they can until Bush leaves office. Your point about the high cost of gas in relation to travel couldn’t ring more true. That’s why I believe Rick is right-on with his posts. It would be naive of all of us to ignore the current politics as if they didn’t affect our travel decisions.
Rick, I definitely don’t agree with you all the time. We have our differences. Yet I was one of the first to stand up for you and your opinions a while back because these come from your experiences and lessons learned from your travels in Europe. I hope my comments have been thought provoking rather than attacking, even when we have disagreed (about half the time). I greatly appreciate your perspective because yours is an honest, yet passionate, one that gives me something to think about. Many times I completely understand and respect your point of view on issues and think you have valid points. Yet I still disagree with you on some of those same points. Even in our differences, we can gain understanding if nothing else. Just yesterday, I spent a half hour talking to a consultant working with us who is from Greece. He has spent a few years working in France so his life and work experiences were fascinating to talk about. We discussed European food and lifestyle, politics, American and European work cultures, materialism, capitalism and socialism, and how Europeans and Americans seek after and enjoy different things. I spoke about my many experiences in Europe and he shared some of his. And in the end, he told me that it seems my travels and experiences have changed me and given me a different perspective than many Americans he knows. And in the end, that is what it is all about. Rick, you mention how you like spirited debates and hope that we can discuss our experiences and our issues in a way that is light hearted, fun, yet thought provoking. So I will close this for now and raise some points on a subject you have brought up before. I only hope it brings up new questions and is something to think about to hear another side, even if you nor anyone else ever comments on it.
Rick, like you, I have seen how well the marijuana thing works in places like Amsterdam. I understand your perspective that making it legal would free up our prisons and allow us to focus on real crime. You are an aadvocate for responsible use and believe that adults, and not kids, should be the ones making this choice. I completely understand where you are coming from but have some hesitations. While pot may not be much different than alcohol, at least there are legal limits to enforce when someone has drank too much. If pot is made legal, then there should be limits as well. There is much debate on the short and long term effects of pot. While for some, it is casual fun for others, it may become an addictive substance in the way that alcohol, drugs, or any other addiction can be to numb our pain and hang ups. The freedom to use pot works well in many places in Europe. Yet we face many different issues and cultural differences here. For one, many Europeans don’t drive meaning those that are high rarely get behind the wheel of a car. In many places in America, driving is almost a necessity so our ability to limit and enforce rules as it relates to those who are high getting behind the wheel of a car are vital. In Europe, religious morality doesn’t drive many politicians or how governments are run. And in our culture, it does. Right or wrong, this is part of American politics. So to make pot legal is not just a common sense issue but a moral and religious issue as well. It’s part of the cultural difference. Also, the attitude of social responsibility for choices is different here than in Europe. So while you raise many valid points concerning the benefits of making pot legal, I think there are logistical issues here in America (being able to enforce a limit on pot for driving) as well as cultural differences (religious, moral, and social) that would need to be addressed as well. I don’t have answers to all of this but wanted to raise some points.
One more thing Rick. As you have been able to share with us your experiences, passions, and perspectives, I hope you have been able to learn from us and others. I know your philosophy is to travel and engage others with an open mind. For someone like me who doesn’t always agree, I have tried to have that perspective with what you have shared. I hope you have done the same with us. I like the idea of you visiting troops to get their perspective. Like some of those you encounter in Europe, I hope that the ideas of various people, including many Americans that you disagree with, can still be met with an open mind. It may not change your opinion but as we all have learned from you, it can change our perspective.
I started reading this blog for travel info, and kept reading for the travel info and political opinion. In my opinion, since the world is political, viewpoints on it are actually helpful in travel planning. Our news here is so controlled and biased (not so much for political reasons, I think, as for commercial ones), it’s helpful to get a different perspective on things, to hear what others abroad are saying about the US. If I’m going to travel to a particular place, I’d like to know in advance where the good/interesting hotels are, where to eat, shop, what to see, etc., and a little about the political climate. There’s nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. And besides, as others have said, it’s your blog. If people don’t enjoy it, they can read something else.
funny how everything got a lot nicer and objective when the “honored one” spoke to his followers. regardless, if people remember that you can not define or categorize individuals (no matter where they are from) and that most of us only have the ability to change/influence the little space around us, i’m sure all these sites would be much more civil. in truth, i think the meanness of the blogs are fueled by jealousy, frustration with jobs, anger from broken relationships, sadness from seeking for meaning apart from God, and childhood bullies. it seems mean bloggers need to take out their frustrations in life and an anonymous outlet for this is an easy, cowardly, wasteful way to do so.
As the poster above mentioned, many do use blogs and places like this to deal with their frustrations in life. In Europe, that’s what soccer games are for. :)
Rick, the day you stop the political observations is the day you become no different than the travel agent down the street selling dozens of identical package tours. In this age of super-conformism we need more dissenting voices. Keep it up!
Hey, it’s your blog. I really enjoy reading it – whatever you have to say. It makes me look forward to planning my next trip.
I just found Rick’s blog and have bookmarked it, look forward to reading regularly. BTW, the Marine who felt a need to ambush Rick at the airport and who, tragically, demostrated by his illogic that he has bought into the jingoistic and simplistic explanation of the Iraq war (which can be summed up as “we’re fightin’ ’em there so’s we ain’t fightin’ ’em here in ‘mericuh”) is probably in the minority now. ABC News reporting that troops are publicly supporting Obama or Clinton now. Don’t change a thing, Rick.
I actually never heard of you until you gave the graduation speech in 2003 at Edmonds Community College. I was intrigued by your speech and your travel experiences enlightened me. In 2006 I was fortunate to travel to Europe keeping in mind some of the many things you’ve written and said. Your travel literature was right on. I also enjoy all your DVDs. With that said, I have to say this is your blog, your company, you have every right to state your thoughts on whatever you like. We have the choice of whether to read it or not. Don’t stop saying what’s on your mind. This is your blog and your travel business. I enjoy reading it. Keep up the good work.
I have a big issue with rich liberals. I think they are hypocrites. If they really believe in higher taxes they should give their money to the government and live in a 2 bedroom house. Most of them believe in socialism but have made their millions in capitalism.
Yes, some of your comments seem anti American,anti Bush,and definitely pro drug.And your recent Iran related words/trips remind me eerily of Lindbergh’s pre WWII trip to Germany.Last, I detected in your travel books and now in your blog anti Catholic bias.But never such comments re other church/religion(but no other religion has had any problem causing folks on board I guess).Your work for BFTW is great and puts your fame to good use.Keep your mind free,listen to the other side, and remember what it took to free first Europe then Eastern Europe from despotism.The same may be true of the Middle East and elsewhere. Art June8,08